Tuesday, August 02, 2011

Why You Shouldn't Pray to Saints

Is praying to saints unbiblical? Yes it is, and I will start with a little history lesson.

In the ancient pagan world, certain gods and demigods had powers in specific areas. For example, Hermes (below) was the god of messengers, travel, and a few other things. So if you were preparing to take a long journey or to send an important message, you would want to invoke Hermes rather than, say, Demeter, who was goddess of agriculture and grain. But if you were going on a journey to buy grain, you might want to invoke both Hermes and Demeter, to increase your chances of a successful enterprise.
                 
When the gospel originally permeated the polytheistic world, many common people began treating saints in the way they had previously treated their pagan gods and demigods. So different saints were seen to have different specialties, and by knowing the area each saint specialized in, one could more effectively evoke their blessing, favor and assistance. For example, Saint Joseph is the patron saint of travel while saint Saint Bernard (778 –842) is the patron saint of agriculture.
  

Over time, as legends accumulated about the different saints, their range of specialties increased, so that Wikipedia tells me that Saint Joseph is considered to be the patron saint, not only of travel, but also of doubt, hesitation, dying people, expectant mothers, happy death, holy death, interior souls, people in doubt, people who fight Communism, pioneers, pregnant women, travellers, and fetuses. (Wikipedia is not where we go to for theology, but it can be very useful in giving the popular view of things, which is what I’m concerned about right now.) One of my favorites is Saint Gertrude of Nivelles (626–659) who can be “invoked against fever, rats, and mice, particularly field-mice.” I like the “particularly field-mice” bit. If you have a house-mice problem, you might be better off with Saint Servatius from the 4th century, since he deals in all kinds of mice, in addition to rats and trouble with your feet.
It can be easy for Protestants to miss the actual problem inherent in these practices. They typically think that the whole issue can be settled simply by appealing to 1 Timothy 2:5, which says that “there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.” The invocation of saints, therefore, subtracts from the mediatory role of Christ according to this argument. However, if you ever use this line of reasoning against a non-Protestant, they will simply reply, “How is asking a saint to pray for me any different than asking you to pray for me?” They will go on to point out that to “pray” simply means to petition, so to pray to a saint is simply to petition them to talk to God on our behalf. If I ask you to pray that my week goes well, does that mean that I am turning you into an idol? Did that mean that I was using you to replace the mediatory role of Christ? Certainly not. So why is it any different if I ask Saint Ignatius to pray for me? If we say that the difference is that you can hear me and Saint Ignatius cannot, then I can accept that. But although talking to someone who can’t hear me may be a waste of time, do we really want to call it idolatry? Let’s assume for the sake of argument that it is idolatry to talk to someone who cannot hear me. If it is, then am I guilty of idolatry every time I speak to my wife when I think she is in the same room but she really isn’t?
 

Of course, the above argument breaks down when we realize that petitioning a saint to pray for me is not like asking a living person to pray for me. Return to the analogy with pagan polytheism. On a grass-roots level, the invocation of saints has functioned very similarly to the invocation of pagan gods and goddesses, together with all the superstitions that went along with it. In fact, a good historical argument can be made that the former was the genesis of the latter.

Moreover, the devotional lives of many non-Protestants are testimony to the fact that in practice the saints function as a half-way house between us and God. Because the saints are holier than us, and because they are already in God’s presence, the assumption is often that it can be effective to ask them to put in a good word for us. Tom Wright describes how the dynamic works in his book For All The Saints:
Within this scheme, the saints, being in heaven and in the intimate presence of God, could pray directly to him on behalf of those still here on earth. The image in mind is of a medieval court. Here I am, let us suppose, in my village a hundred miles away from London. How can i get the king to take any notice of me? Well, there is a man from my village, an old friend of my father's, who is the chief pastry-cook at the palace. He will put in a word for me. I have, in that sense, 'a friend at court'. In the same way, the saints were thought of as being that much closer to God than we were; but since they were our own folk, humans like us, they could sympathize with us, see the problems we were facing, and present our case before the royal throne. To this end, we in turn could and should call upon them ('invoke' is the word normally used), asking them to pray for us, and sometimes simply asking them to do things for us directly. This aspect of belief in the saints, in their accessibility to us and usefulness on our behalf, was and is among the most popular features of piety for some Christians...
In this way, the invocation of saints has functioned to obscure the reality both of our direct access to the King, and of Jesus’ closeness to each and every one of us by virtue of His humanity. The problem is that our Heavenly Father is not some distant king that we can more effectively reach by going through someone else; on the contrary, each and every one of us should feel confident to approach Him directly through the blood of Jesus.

Thus, when the issue is fleshed out a bit, we see that the common Protestant objection - that saints subtract from Christ’s mediator role - is essentially a sound objection provided that it is filled in a bit in the way I am doing with attention to what happens on ground level.

Still, someone might rejoin, as long as one avoids the above tendencies, is it idolatrous to ask saints to intercede? Given that idolatry is fundamentally a state of the heart, it is impossible to answer a question like this in the abstract. Yet even if one avoids the errors mentioned above, and even if one has not turned the saints into idols, there are still good reasons not to invoke their intercessions.
  
One such reason is that it is far from certain that the saints can actually hear us (I can think of no Biblical evidence suggesting that they can hear us), so speaking to them may be a waste of time. But let’s assume, for the sake of argument, that the saints do hear us when we speak to them. That would mean that popular saints, such as Mary, would have to be virtually omnipresent to process all the requests simultaneously occurring at any one point of time. To assume that Mary can hear and deal with the requests of her votaries is to assume that she has transcended certain limitations of being a creature. Now in principle this is not problematic, since we know that sanctification involves taking up many aspects of the divine nature. But unless we have evidence for thinking it is probable that Mary has indeed been endowed with these sort of abilities, talking to her may be an exercise in futility. Some have suggested that when we talk to the saints, God picks up our requests and ‘delivers’ those requests to the saint in question. In that scenario, what is happening is this: I am asking Mary to pray for me; God picks up my request for Mary and delivers it; Mary receives my request and then delivers it back to God. Apart from the problem that this is all pure speculation, my immediate question would be: why not just streamline the process by going directly to God in the first place? (I am not, of course, implying that those who pray to saints do not also pray to God.)

One final problem arises from the fact that in practice petitions to saints function very much like prayer to God and even (dare I say it) like worship. Would you talk to another human being like the Eastern Orthodox talk to Saint Nicholas in the following prayer? (I’ve picked on Saint Nicholas because he was being specially venerated at a service we attended a few years ago):

A PRAYER TO SAINT NICHOLAS
With divine myrrh the divine grace of the Spirit anointed thee,
who didst preside as the leader of Myra,
and having made the ends of the world fragrant with the myrrh of virtues,
thou holiest of men,
through the pleasant breathings of thine intercessions
always driving away the evil stench of the passions.
Therefore, in faith we render thee great praise,
and celebrate thine all-holy memory, O Nicholas.
O blessed Nicholas,
show compassion to me who fall down praying to thee;
and enlighten the eyes of my soul, O wise one,
that I may clearly behold the Light-Giver and Compassionate One.
The truth of things revealed thee to thy flock as a rule of faith,
an icon of meekness and a teacher of temperance;
therefore, thou hast achieved the heights by humility, riches by poverty.
O Father and Hierarch Nicholas,
intercede with Christ God that our souls be saved.

Saint Nicholas
While it might be hard to isolate any one aspect of the above prayer and label it as idolatry, let’s consider the whole package. This is a prayer being offered up to Nicholas in a service devoted especially to him in which there are icons of Nicholas that the priest can bow down to while offering the prayer. Moreover, the prayer itself shows that there is more going on than merely asking a saint to pray for me and praising God's work in his life. The assumption seems to be that Nicholas himself has power to grant our requests (“show compassion to me…enlighten the eyes of my soul”), including helping us in our salvation (“intercede with Christ God that our souls be saved”). Given this whole package, I think it seems appropriate to question the legitimacy of it.
  
Now I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In the book of Revelation the martyrs in heaven are interceding for justice to be done on the earth (Rev. 6:10). Thus, I have no problem affirming that the saints in heaven are interceding for us. But this is something very different to evoking their help or assuming they can help us in a way that requires levels of functional divinity.

One final point before I leave the subject of saints. One of the saddest things about the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox misuse of saints is that many Protestants are afraid of giving our mothers and fathers in the faith their due honor. This is once again a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Nowhere is this better illustrated than in Protestant approaches to Mary. Though Mary said herself that future generations would call her blessed, there are many Protestants who hate Mary with a passion, while others simply ignore her altogether. This is quite sad and we Protestants have a long way to go to recover a proper and balanced Maryology. 


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16 comments:

Devin Rose said...

Catholic dude here, convert from atheism to Evangelical Protestantism before entering full communion with the Catholic Church.

Sure, you could be right. But the Catholic understanding of the communion of saints has deep theology. When we become Christians, we are joined to Christ's mystical Body, of which He is the head. When we die, we know our souls do not die, but go to be with God--death does not separate Christians from Christ, far from it--so we are still members of His Body.

Jesus pointed out the Sadducees errors when He dropped the bombshell that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not dead, but alive. Moses and Elijah even appear on the mount of Transfiguration, talking with Jesus in front of the three Apostles! So we know from Jesus' own words and this account that Moses and Elijah and all the saints are still alive.

The next question becomes whether they can intercede for us, something you already conceded as likely given Revelation's statements. So then, can we ask them to pray for us? You are right that no explicit biblical proof-text exists for that. But it has been the understanding of the Church for a long, long time, developed from the theology of the Church being Christ's mystical Body.

People who want to read more of the theology--of which I barely scraped the surface--can just google communion of saints and read the Catholic Encyclopedia article on it.

Fr.Phil said...

I hope all I previously posted made it through before this application blew up....

Let me know if it didn't go through and I'll try to reconstruct it..

In any event - Who is more alive? Us down here or them "up there?" If I wouldn't hesitate to ask you to pray for me without any fear of idolatry or heresy, why would I not have them pray for me? Now I have to admit I'm pretty Reformed and Evangelical about all this and don't get overly exercised with "praying" with/to/about/whatever along with the saints. If we believe in the "communion of the saints" this must include those who have "graduated" and gone before us. As I asked before, who is more alive and really "living" - us or them? Communion of the saints is not some form of pagan necromancy. If we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses, and honestly I think of our tragedies and comedies down here as something like their reality TV or their watching us as some "special olympics" - in any event, they are watching and cheering and groaning with us. We should get to know them better. That is my basic attitude.

As far as praying "to" them that is too easy to misunderstand as if I ask you to pray for me that could also be construed as praying "to" you since I am asking "Pray tell" you to do something for me. In reality I am only asking you to pray for me. We all know it is only what is asked in Christ's name get's heard and He alone is the only Mediator between God and man. But praying with and to and for each other is something that communion and community is all about. So I see no real difference between asking them to pray for me or asking you to pray for me - except they don't sleep (I don't think) and they are much closer to the source we are praying to.

Tim Enloe said...

Excellent article, Robin. Truly, this issue is one of the most problematic that must be faced for anyone considering the claims of Rome and the East.

The notion that the Saints in heaven are "closer" to God than we are is fundamentally flawed precisely because we are told many times in Scripture that we have direct access to God through our faith in Christ. We have access to God in the same way that they do - and it is silly to imagine that they have a closer "spatial" presence to God than we do, since God is omnipresent.

It's interesting given that "If it's wrong to ask the Saints to pray for me, it's wrong to ask you to pray for me" argument, that what is being overlooked is precisely the fact that the Saints are given a mediatorial role that transcends anything possessed by anyone here on Earth that I could ask to pray for me. Given what is being said about the Saints' relationship with God, no, it is not the same thing to ask St. Ignatius to pray for me as it is to ask my brother whom I see in church every week to pray for me. It's a flawed analogy, but it disturbs a whole lot of Protestants.

Devin Rose said...

Tim,

Long time no see. Hope all is well with you.

Your response that we are as close to God as those saints in Heaven are doesn't make sense to me. Do you also think that we are as close to God as the angels are? Including the ones who minister before God's very throne? What about at the final judgment, Resurrection of the dead, when we go to be with God forever: do you think that we are today as close to God as we will be then? What about Paul's comment that we see darkly now, but will see clearly then?

It doesn't seem like God's omnipresence nor our direct access to him leads to the idea that people wherever or in whatever state
are all equally close to God.

God bless.

Brian McLain said...

This is a good article Robin. I have a number of good friends who are RC and EO, and while I have gained a great deal of respect - and in all honesty probably a better theology as well - by listening to them and studying with them, there are a number of issues I just can't get on board with - this issue being one of the primary ones. I think you give a balanced assessment of this issue... here's another related question that goes along perfectly with some of the comments: If we are really supposed to understand "praying to the saints" as if it were asking a fellow Christian to pray for us, why do they only pray to certain popular saints. If the analogy really is like having that "in" with someone who's closer to the king that we are, then why don't they pray to their dear old aunt bettie, or that godly sunday school teacher who passed away a few years ago. Why is it always a saint-saint, and not just a saint. Really, are we supposed to believe that St. Joseph is praying for the countless thousands (millions?) of people who invoke his name on a daily basis.
I like Devin's response - especially the first half - it's one that I heard a while back and really caused me to rethink my views about death, eternal life, and so on... but why not have this view in regards to everyone? Which of course, leads us down the even rockier road of what makes a saint into a saint-saint ("affirmed" miracles and the like).

Bryan Cross said...

Robin,

I followed your argument until you said: "In this way, the invocation of saints has functioned to obscure the reality both of our direct access to the King, and of Jesus’ closeness to each and every one of us by virtue of His humanity." Nothing you previously said entailed that conclusion. So, it appears to me to be a mere assertion, and I don't see any good reason to believe that it is true.

Moreover, you're not distinguishing between what is essential to a practice and what is accidental to a practice, and so if the problem you mention is only accidental to the practice, then the solution is not the elimination of the practice, but proper use of the practice (i.e. the old dictum: use does not nullify proper use). That's why, for example, if someone started thinking that the permissibility of asking other [embodied] Christians to pray for him meant that he couldn't speak directly to God, you wouldn't write a post titled "Why you shouldn't ask anyone to pray for you." You would simply remind him that he can (and should) pray directly to God, but that God has also given us the gift of Christian society, in which we can give to others the opportunity to share with us in prayer, by praying for us, and and they can give to us, by aiding us through their prayers.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan

Devin Rose said...

Brian,

I would respond that many Catholics do ask their old Aunt Bettie to pray for them, under the pious hope that she is with God in Heaven. The Church canonizes a relatively small number of people, much fewer than the total number of saints (those who are saved by Christ).

This can get out of hand of course, if people privately "canonize" all their relatives, regardless of how they lived or what they believed, but generally people know which family members have been living lives of Christ-like love. God bless!

Bryan Cross said...

Robin,

My statement above "use does not nullify proper use" obviously should have been "abuse does not nullify proper use."

There are good answers to the three reasons you give. You write, "One such reason is that it is far from certain that the saints can actually hear us" -- That's surely the case for "solo scriptura-ists" / "biblicists," but not for Catholics and Orthodox, who are guided by the authoritative Tradition and the teaching Magisterium. In other words, you're using a Protestant paradigm to evaluate the Catholic paradigm, and that just begs the question (i.e. presupposes precisely what is in question).


"To assume that Mary can hear and deal with the requests of her votaries is to assume that she has transcended certain limitations of being a creature."

From the Tradition and the Church we know that Mary and the saints are presently enjoying the Beatific Vision. They see God face to face. As such, they see in God (by their perfect union with God) all that pertains to them, including petitions addressed to them. So they know our petitions to them, through their perfect union with God who is omniscient. The notion that they are presently limited in the same way they were on earth, is a denial of theosis and the Beatific Vision, and thus begs the question against the Catholic/Orthodox doctrine of heaven.
So is the notion that they cannot possibly be divinized and simultaneously remain creatures.

"But unless we have evidence for thinking it is probable that Mary has indeed been endowed with these sort of abilities, talking to her may be an exercise in futility."

Again, not a problem for Catholics and Orthodox. Today is the feast of the Assumption. We know both from Tradition and the Magisterium that she is in heaven.

"why not just streamline the process by going directly to God in the first place?"

Because the highest good in life is not efficiency. Otherwise there would be no such thing a secondary causation, and occasionalism would be true. God delights in giving His creatures a participatory role in all that He does. We see this throughout redemptive history.

"One final problem arises from the fact that in practice petitions to saints function very much like prayer to God and even (dare I say it) like worship."

You say that this is a problem, but then you don't explain why it is a problem. You just follow it with a question. What is to be given only to God, is latria. And giving honor to the saints, and asking them to intercede for us, is not giving them latria. The "sounds like" test is not a reliable test, if what matters is whether latria is given to God alone.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan

Bryan Cross said...

Tim,

The notion that the Saints in heaven are "closer" to God than we are is fundamentally flawed precisely because we are told many times in Scripture that we have direct access to God through our faith in Christ. We have access to God in the same way that they do

This creates a dilemma. If our prayers in this life are no less efficacious than those of the saints in heaven, then in this life we are already as sanctified as we will ever be (in which case all your present sinfulness will remain with you eternally). But if the saints in heaven are perfectly sanctified, and thus more sanctified than we are now, then their prayers are more efficacious than ours, because the prayers of a righteous man availeth much.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan

The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvka said...

Why You Shouldn't Pray to Saints


Then do this: invoke their intercessions in your prayers to God, since the Bible does tell us -at least in Revelations- that they are aware of what's going on down here on earth and intercede for us.

___________________________________
Furthermore: pay attention to Matthew 27:47 and Mark 15:35: do you know why they mistook His cry to the Father for a call upon Elijah the Prophet? Because it was customary for pious Jews before and around the time of Christ to invoke holy living beings [Angels, Enoch, Elijah] as intercessors: Why? Because they were not sure if the dead can hear them or not (see Ecclesiastes). But Christ said to them: "our God (of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were dead) is a God of the living, not of the dead": So Christians logically expanded this practice, which they've inherited from pre-Christian Judaism, to include non-living Saints and righteous. Perhaps a link would be in order here...

The Blogger Formerly Known As Lvka said...

Invoking the intercessory prayers of the Saints in our prayers is a three-fold expression of meekness, love, and firm belief that Christ vanquished death.

Direct access to God is not the same as loneliness and pride and division and ignoring each other.

That's all I had to add.

Unknown said...

Sure, praying to saints makes sense from a Roman Catholic point of view. But that is as much a reason not to be Catholic as it is to pray to saints.

Bryan Cross said...

Robin,

I don't see how "x makes sense from a Catholic point of view" can be a non-question-begging reason not to be Catholic, i.e. can be a good reason not to be Catholic.

In the peace of Christ,

- Bryan

My Life In Poetry And Song said...

In Revelation (which a good portion of describes Orthodox Liturgical worship literally), it describes an angel censing and with the incense was the "prayers of the saints" offered to God as an offering. How much MORE alive are those with Christ! How much more can they pray for us since they are in glory! Heaven and hell are more than merely places. They are being in the glory of God and whether that is Heaven or Hell to you depends on whether you detest or are joyous in eternal worship and prayer. Either way, we will all bow down before God Almighty and confess that He is Lord.

On another note, we all affect each others salvation in some ways. We change each other's minds, we can be either kind or mean and that can affect decisions people make and the emotions they feel. We can also neglect to help those around us and how does the neglect affect them the same way! Christ picked us up out of the pit, and also asks us to do the same for each other! "Pray for one another" does not end when one dies, rather it blossoms into more! "Greet one another with a Holy kiss" also attests to the fact that we are all created in the image of God and what we do to one another, we do to Christ. When we kiss each other, when we love one another, when we respect one another, we are doing it to our brothers and sisters and Christ Himself. Is love not active prayer? When the saints pray for us, oh how they pray! In their lives, oh how they have loved!

"Pray without ceasing"

This essentially is Heaven.

My Life In Poetry And Song said...

Orthodox worship is intended to not just mimic Heavenly worship, but to join in the Heavenly worship that is unceasing. Just as there was incense in the Old Testament and Revelation, it is an ongoing offering of incense with our prayers and those of the saints.
"Nature" is not to be separated from the spiritual, but God uses the created to show Himself and to impart His grace and mercy upon us. How much more is there that we cannot see? God is everywhere and fillest all things.
Each moment is filled with His grace and mercy, not just time in our lives. We are forever turning back to Him and remembering Him and turning from our old ways. It is a struggle to the end of our physical lives.

Sorry I got a bit off topic.

Ed said...

You said, "On a grass-roots level, the invocation of saints has functioned very similarly to the invocation of pagan gods and goddesses, together with all the superstitions that went along with it. In fact, a good historical argument can be made that the former was the genesis of the latter."

Others have pointed out other problems with your arguments, but the above quote was your first answer to known responses of non-Protestants, so I would like to say a little something about it, if I may.

The narrative of Christ's death given in the penal substitution atonement theory, so popular among Protestants, is very similar to some pagan practices of sacrificing an innocent one (perhaps a virgin) to appease gods. In fact, some do say that "a good historical argument can be made that the former was the genesis of the latter." Well, I'm certainly not attached to Penal Substitution, so, please, let's throw it out.

But to use your line of reasoning in a truly disturbing way, I would point out that there were pagan myths resembling the story of Christ, complete with a god-man hero dying and rising again. In fact, some do say that "a good historical argument can be made that the former was the genesis of the latter." But I don't say that. Do you?

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